Or what about both? N. T. Wright has made the news again, this time in an interview with Time, and he presents a view of heaven and the resurrection that is not the “traditional” view. Time magazine gave it the lovely title, “Christians Wrong About Heaven, Says Bishop.”
Wright’s view is not nearly as provocative as Time would have us believe. It is also not that new. Of course Wright is correct that most Christians do have a very different view of what happens after death and before the final resurrection than that held by early Judaism and the New Testament. But I am not sure that I buy Wright’s argument of soul sleep either.
Soul sleep is the notion that after death Christians go into a sort of stasis, until the final resurrection and the day of judgment. Wright doesn’t use this term, but it is the one that I first heard my father use when I was in high school and we were discussing these matters. Wright described it this way in the article,
TIME: Is there anything more in the Bible about the period between death and the resurrection of the dead?
Wright: We know that we will be with God and with Christ, resting and being refreshed. Paul writes that it will be conscious, but compared with being bodily alive, it will be like being asleep. The Wisdom of Solomon, a Jewish text from about the same time as Jesus, says “the souls of the righteous are in the hand of God,” and that seems like a poetic way to put the Christian understanding, as well.
Wright’s view certainly does fit the New Testament evidence better than other readings, but I want to suggest a slightly different view. WARNING: this is all just a theory, feel free to rip it apart, and I do not suggest that it is doctrine in any way. That being said, I do not see how it is heretical or out of keeping with New Testament teachings or conceptions of early Judaism.
If we assume that God is outside of the space/time continuum then why must we continue to think of the life after death is in a linear progress? Could it not be that when one dies one is also outside of this linear path and thus, regardless of one’s point in history, all arrive at the same moment? Christ’s return then is not “delayed” but is always in the future and always at this moment. Perhaps a graphic can illustrate this better than my words.
Removing the limitations of the linear passage of time opens up other possibilities. It also makes the passage of time less daunting when considering Christ’s return. (Has it troubled any other Christians out there that Jesus was closer in history to David than to us? Brings to mind Douglas Adams’s Hitchhiker trilogy and the Restaurant at the End of the Universe.) Still, I don’t think this conception is heretical and in fact accommodates NT teachings as well.
So what do you think?
My grand theory is here
Thanks Bob! Very interesting and it will take me some time to digest your thoughts.
With dimension, one has to have positive and negative measures. Such measures are of course relative to a point of origin. So easy for the three dimensional reality we are conscious of.
Occasionally we even name them
- height-depth,
length-? what is negative length?
width-?
time-?, time is bad enough with the square root of -1 in the equations, negative time is maybe redemption, though of course we do measure if vaguely BCE and CE,
glory – ? what is negative glory,
faith-sin (that one was easy),
hope-despair,
love-hate?
Stafford Beer, the father of operations research defined God as a store of negative entropy (= information, In the beginning was the word…).
Our naming game extends our spacetime – but this is for fun, to convince us we do not ‘know’ everything – but what is important is not our knowing – which puffs up, but our love – and our being loved and being known – considering these as divine passives.
Blessings – and thanks for all the fish.
Is this similar to Emil Brunner, C.S. Lewis and Narnia and Dr. Frank Stagg of the Baptists in America? Dr. Stagg wrote a book called New Testament Theology in which he used the concept of time and eternity and instantaneous resurrection. Do I see 2 Corinthians 5:1-10 in your thinking?
Deacon Charles E. Miller, BA, MA
Charles, I am afraid I do not know Dr. Stagg’s work, but certainly that passage from 2 Cor. informs my overall understanding of the resurrection but I don’t see in it any clear sense in chronology (other than the linear nature which binds a narrative structure such as writing).
As for CS Lewis I certainly have read much of his work and I recall his Great Divorce keenly, but I have been unable to find a copy of it again. If I recall correctly, he too has a very linear notion, with the bus coming and going to pick people up, some arrive at one time others at another. I cannot recall any passages in the Narnia books that might touch upon this, can you refer me to them?
C.S. Lewis in Narnia seems to me to reflect two time frames, the one of Narnia and the one of earth. Time spent on Narnia is not the same as time spent on earth. The children in the story may spend 10 years on Narnia; however, on earth only a few minutes have passed after they left. They return to earth and only ten minutes have passed since they left. They also arrive in Narnia in a non-linear fashion. Centuries have passed since the last time they were there. Also, the train wreck scene has them going to Beyond the Shadowlands (Heaven). They seem to be in a bodily state. They arrive in the eternal state immediately after death. That is the way it seems to me. I could be wrong. I recommend Dr. Stagg’s book to you. Its title is New Testament Theology by Dr. Frank Stagg. It can be ordered on the internet. It deals with instantaneous resurrection and relates also to Dr. Emil Brunner from the Eternal Hope. I like your graphic. It is interesting. I hope we correspond again. It is good to speak with someone about these things. I also do it with my wife, Nancy.
Charles
Charles – I have not read the train wreck seen in decades, so I will have to review that, but the chronology of Narnia still runs in a linear fashion, albeit faster than our time here on earth. And, if I recall The Great Divorce it reflects a similar conviction to that which you summarize in the train wreck episode in Narnia; They immediately arrive in heaven. This is where my suggestion differs from Lewis’ depiction in that I suggest that everyone arrives at the same time immediately following death, regardless of their point in the earthly chronology.
Thank you again for the suggestion of Stagg. I will try and get around to it!
Dear Chris,
I want to thank you for your discussions with me. They were quite interesting. It meant something to me since my father went to heaven in 1985 and my father passed December 18, 2006. I was a bank officer with Bank of America and my wife was a professor at Old Dominion University in Norfolk, Virginia. I read what appears to be your profile. You are a dean at Penn State. Perhaps I will add one of your books to my extensive library one day. My BA is in German language and literature and my MA in Religion. I would say that I am a moderate Baptist and former United Methodist. In any case, I appreciate your time.
Charles
Charles,
It was my pleasure and I am glad that this notion brings some solace. As I have said before, I wouldn’t argue it as doctrine, but at the same time I do not think it is heretical. But in suggesting this over the years many people have told me that it has brought them comfort. I think that has some very real value.
I’ve actually thought about that after reading N.T. Wright’s
articles on the subject and I’m glad that I’m not the only
one to think that this might be the case. We might very well
time travel to the future where Christ returns and we are raised
from the dead in a new body. We may never even be alone. Our
loved ones may already be there with us. I’ve often thought,
okay, my loved ones in Heaven are waiting for me, but it may be
the case that I’m already there with them in the future.
It makes my brain hurt thinking about it but God invented time
so he can break the rules if He wants to because He is God.
Duane
NT Wright on Soul Sleep
Here is what NT Wright supports, I obtained this quote from another site:
Wright definitely does not advocate soul sleep. He thinks that the intermediate state is some sort of restful, conscious existence in the presence of the Lord (hence the use of ‘paradise’ as a description which wouldn’t make much sense in terms of soul sleep), until the day of resurrection when we will be re-embodied.
To quote from Surprised by Hope: “all the Christian dead are in substantially the same state, that of restful happiness. Though this is sometimes described as ‘sleep’, we shouldn’t take this to mean that it is a state of unconsciousness. Had Paul thought that, I very much doubt that he would have described life immediately after death as ‘being with Christ, which is far better’. Rather, ‘sleep’ here means that the body is ‘asleep’ in the sense of ‘dead’, while the real person – however we want to describe him or her – continues.
… it is a state in which the dead are held firmly within the conscious love of God and the conscious presence of Jesus Christ, while they await that day. There is no reason why this state should not be called ‘heaven’, though we must note once more how interesting it is that the New Testament routinely doesn’t call it that, and uses the word ‘heaven’ in other ways.” pp.183-184
Explicitly, Wright states that “the Christian dead are conscious” (p. 185). This is from the section in the book on ‘Paradise’, pp. 183-187
Brandon, thanks for the additional quotes. At this point the debate is largely semantic as evidenced by the fact that Wright himself, in the Time quote says, “compared with being bodily alive, it will be like being asleep.” Stasis, sleep, restful happiness, no matter how one describes it the person is in some sort of pre-Heaven existence.
The subject is “immediate resurrection”, “Resurrection” means a body once dead becoming alive again. What “alive” means is hard to define. “Immediate” is a sequential term. It suggests time but both the Bible and Einstein see variations of that concept. Semantically it means “without ‘im-’ anything between ‘medius’ ‘in the middle.” Such is described in I Corinthians 15:52 as, “In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye….”
So what we are talking about is, “The timeless moment between when a soul dies and is resurrected – is made alive in a new BODY.” If it exists without a body, it has not been resurrected. In fact, according to Gen. 2:7 and the definition of the word “soul” (Hebrew “nephesh”) given there, it is not even a “soul” if it has no body. In Gen. 1:20 the waters swarmed with nephesh, fish and birds. And in Gen. 1:24, the earth brought forth nephesh – animals of all kinds. So a soul is an identifiable, formed body that has life, either the life it began with or the after life. There is “no medius”, no time in the middle, and no existing without a body.
There was a sect of Judaism of which we are told 4 or 5 times that they “say there IS no resurrection,” always in the present tense. Whether they thought there might be one in a distant future was not the question. It is the present tense that they denied. Jesus corrects them in Matt. 22:31, “That there IS resurrection . . . (“That the dead ARE RISING . . .” Mark 12:26; “That the dead ARE BEING raised . . .” Luke 20:37, all Greek present tenses denoting on going action in present time) the words “I AM the God of Abraham . . . ” said to Moses at the Bush prove. Why? Because God is not the God of the dead. If Abraham had not yet been resurrected when God was talking to Moses, then God would have been God of the dead, and He might have said, “I was . . ” or “I WILL BE . . .” the God of Abraham. Luke makes is specific, “All are living with God.” Not just some kind of existence but, according to Matthew, resurrected.
When Jesus heard the conversation between the two rich men about Lazarus, Luke 16:19ff, Abraham and the two others already had bodies while the brothers were still on earth. They were in their final state, no crossing over for a final judgment.
“How are the dead being raised? (Greek present tense) “With what kind of body are they coming?” They are COMING WITH bodies, bodies from heaven, not the ones that were planted. I Cor. 15:35ff. not flesh and blood. They are coming with Jesus, but they are going to be raised “first”, before they come. I Thess. 4:17. We are never “naked” without either our earthly tent or our house from heaven, (which we already “have”, present tense) II Cor. 5.
The Father is raising the dead (on-going Greek present tense again). The Son is seeing the Father doing that and so He does what He sees His Father doing. John 5. Paul, in court, says the same thing, Acts 26:8, God is raising the dead.
There is resurrection going on and there is no time between dying and rising from the dead. Resurrection is immediate.
I am a member of a Cooperative Baptist Church in Chesapeake, Virginia. It seems that your view follows that of Dr. Frank Stagg, Cooperative Baptist Theologian, and Dr. Emil Brunner, a Swiss theologian. This is also called Instantaneous Resurrection. My father went to heaven April 11,1985 and my mother followed him December 18,2006. During my father’s funeral, I asked the minister to use II Corinthians 5:1-10. I hope you do no mind answering this question. To what branch of Christianity do you belong? It seems that you are clergy. In any case, God bless you and your ministry.
Charles E. Miller, BA, MAR, Abschlussurkunde in Biblische Studien
Dear J M Moes,
Are you familiar with Frank Stagg, BA,ThM, PhD? He was a Southern Baptist Professor who served at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. He believed in resurrection at death.
Charles E. Miller, BA, MAR, DipBS, Abschlussurkunde in Biblische Studien
[...] allowed (tacitly at least) in Christian communities regarding the afterlife (see my post on “Immediate Resurrection” that received another comment just today). The difficulty is, of course, that our [...]
Dear J. M. Moes,
I can understand what you are saying. Both of my parents are with the Lord. My father went April 11, 1985 and my mother followed him December 18,2006. I used 2 Corinthians 5:1-10 at my father’s funeral. I am a Cooperative Baptist and belong to Churchland Baptist Church. Would you mind saying what you background is? You sound as if you have a minister’s background. In any case, you sound as if you have sound reasoning. God bless your ministry.
Charles E. Miller,Jr. BA, MAR. Abschlussurkunde in Biblische Studien